2012 Saturday Singles

Fulton County - Roswell, Ga

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2012 Saturday Singles

Postby 12StonesScott » Fri May 04, 2012 9:44 am

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We're finally ready to roll out this year's singles league info! Tim Acker has very kindly stepped up to the plate for running the action this year. First date will be Saturday, May 19th. Action will start promptly at 10 am; sign-in/players meeting 9:45 am.

What's new: Singles will be on the FIRST and THIRD Saturdays of each month (no action if there's a fifth Saturday) at 10 am, instead of every Monday night. We're grateful that everyone could make it out on Mondays the last several years, but the logistics of getting there after work and getting done before dark were always a challenge, and none of us could commit to being able to be there every Monday night to run things this year.

What's the same:
  • Two divisions, Open (pro) and Recreational
  • Minimum buy-in $2 Rec/$11 Open
  • All-in $5 Rec/$15 Open (including Ace Pool and CTPs)
  • Handicaps will be calculated based on league play and used to determine order of finish
  • Points will be awarded each week (1 point for each person in your division you beat, based on handicapped order of finish)
  • $1 from minimum buy-in gets split between RDGC and RRPD
  • Everyone should have a great time

We did consider carefully the conflict with Alexander doubles on Saturday mornings, but we're hoping it won't be too much of a challenge for folks since:
  1. Alex is about 40 minutes away
  2. There didn't seem to be a huge amount of overlap among the players from past ERP Monday singles and Alex doubles
  3. It's a different format, which we hope will appeal to different sets of players
  4. Ours is only every other week, so you could still play Alex doubles twice a month even if you show up alternate Saturdays at ERP.

We know there may also be conflicts with particular tournaments -- we'll consider adjust the schedule as needed on a case-by-case basis.

If you need more info, feel free to post here, watch the Facebook page at http://www.facebook.com/RoswellDiscGolfClub , or e-mail league@roswelldiscgolf.org .
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby Rich Meade » Fri May 04, 2012 6:09 pm

Will previous handicaps roll over?

If not how many weeks till a handicap is determined?

Will there be a limit on the handicap?
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby 12StonesScott » Fri May 04, 2012 9:54 pm

Rich Meade wrote:Will previous handicaps roll over?

If not how many weeks till a handicap is determined?

Will there be a limit on the handicap?


Tim Acker's the guy to check with, as he's going to be the head man what's in charge, but my understanding is that:

  • Any established player from last year gets 50% of their previous handicap the first week of play, and subsequently an average from this year's first round and that previous handicap.
  • Any new player will have one establishing round, get 50% of that calculated HC the following league week, and be fully established on their third week of play.

I also know that at one point there was a plan to limit handicaps, but that was when there was also discussion of having only one division -- that changed, and I'm not sure what if any impact that had on Tim's thinking about the handicap limit.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby tack » Sat May 05, 2012 2:41 pm

Scott has it right on. I haven't decided whether I am going to cap the front or the backside of the handicap. I am probably going to bring it up first week since we will all only have 50% of last seasons hc. It will either be capped at 10 from blacks, or any players 5 or 6 under playoff. I don't want to discourage people from moving up, but want to discourage bagging.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby Tokio » Mon May 07, 2012 12:21 pm

How bout we do away with the handicaps....
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby $Dollar$ » Mon May 07, 2012 3:09 pm

Tokio wrote:How bout we do away with the handicaps....


But then we'd have to compete against others! How can someone play without someone else telling them how good or bad they are?
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby tack » Mon May 07, 2012 8:48 pm

Tell you what, come out to league consistently and we can vote on making it a PDGA sanctioned singles league with the guys that show up eery week. Or, you can come be an active participant in the ERPDGC and run a separate league. Either way is cool with me and I will participate. My concern is getting people involved with the course to the extent that parks and rec doesn't decide to destroy an amazing layout at the expense of extra parking spaces when the library goes in and trying to have a little fun whilst getting better at my hobby.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby kade.erp » Tue May 08, 2012 9:32 am

If you are running divisions then the answer is simple. Rec league should be handicapped and Open should be scratch scores. Everybody wins. A group I played with in Greensboro set up their league like this. I do agree that handicaps are not what I am looking for.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby craigd » Tue May 08, 2012 12:26 pm

kade.erp wrote:If you are running divisions then the answer is simple. Rec league should be handicapped and Open should be scratch scores. Everybody wins. A group I played with in Greensboro set up their league like this. I do agree that handicaps are not what I am looking for.


This works well at the league over at Oregon Park too. I could name a few guys we would lose if we introduced handicaps to the current scratch division but there are others who don't play because it's not handicapped. At the end of the day you can't make everybody happy. I agree with Kade that most open players don't like a handicap system. It's nice to have a choice between a scratch division and a handicapped division.
Last edited by craigd on Tue May 08, 2012 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby djester#2 » Tue May 08, 2012 4:06 pm

Please don't name the handicapped division "pro" or "open".
Name it "handicapped" instead.

Pro & handicapped shouldn't be related or placed together.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby tack » Sun May 13, 2012 8:49 pm

craigd wrote:
kade.erp wrote:If you are running divisions then the answer is simple. Rec league should be handicapped and Open should be scratch scores. Everybody wins. A group I played with in Greensboro set up their league like this. I do agree that handicaps are not what I am looking for.


This works well at the league over at Oregon Park too. I could name a few guys we would lose if we introduced handicaps to the current scratch division but there are others who don't play because it's not handicapped. At the end of the day you can't make everybody happy. I agree with Kade that most open players don't like a handicap system. It's nice to have a choice between a scratch division and a handicapped division.


Craig, I appreciate the input.

I had initially intended to run just one division, lower the entry fees from the open division, raise it from the rec, and limit handicaps. It seems that pretty much no matter what, someone will be unhappy with what one does, so the plan is to let democracy rule and vote amongst the current and regular players. Hope to see you out next Saturday.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby Sergio Martinez » Mon May 14, 2012 7:03 pm

A handicap will guarantee that I will not attend.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby 12StonesScott » Tue May 15, 2012 12:12 am

Sergio Martinez wrote:A handicap will guarantee that I will not attend.


As an Open or Rec player? I can certainly understand the arguments against it in Open. As for Rec, it's ultimately Tim's call, but I have and will continue to argue for using handicaps in that division. As a club, one of our main motivations for trying to keep some kind of regular action going is to provide a venue for new players to get introduced to competitive play and to build up support for the course and the club, and the numbers bear me out when I say that introducing hanidcaps made a siginificant difference in the number of people who showed up to give it a try, and in keeping many of them coming back regularly.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby Rich Meade » Tue May 15, 2012 6:36 pm

Sergio Martinez wrote:A handicap will guarantee that I will not attend.


No handicap will guarantee that I will not attend.

in truth, I'd probably stick with going to Alexander anyway...
but, no handicap makes it a pointless venture for me personally.

With a handicap system.. it makes it more appealing for us "rec" players...
and brings in more money for you "Open" players.

Just my 2¢
but if you like taking each others money each week (what are there like 5 of you that consistently make it out every week?) so be it.


You, "open" players, shouldn't think of a handicap system as a way for people to take your money...
but think of it as a way to increase the competition...
Which is good for everyone...

If you are against the handicap soley because you don't want a rec player like me stepping up with a -6 handicap, and make you shoot a 52 instead of your usual 54...and taking YOUR money, then you are in this for the wrong reasons.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby djester#2 » Tue May 15, 2012 10:45 pm

What's your point? You've been out to Perkerson before and took home quite a good amount of money & didn't have a handicap.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby $Dollar$ » Wed May 16, 2012 1:56 pm

Apparently he feels entitled to be handicapped
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby JeremyO » Wed May 16, 2012 4:04 pm

I'm curious as to what those who are against the handicap propose as a solution to the following problem (which is what the handicap is trying to solve):

Non-scratch golfers generally can't compete on raw score with scratch golfers (hence the scratch/non-scratch distinction.) This is why everyone doesn't play Open in tournaments. They want a reasonable chance to win.

If the scratch golfers want more non-scratch golfers to show up regularly, then the answer cannot be, "they should show up, pay money and expect to lose 99% of the time."

That might be "fair" from a skill and talent perspective, but it's motivation to stay home for guys that aren't on that level and know it. If scratch golfers don't want non-scratch guys there, then the problem takes care of itself. Most people will stay away until they can compete and the pool of players will always be small.

I don't see anyone who is arguing against the handicap putting forth an alternative solution or admitting that they want to keep the player group small.

Just to be clear, this situation isn't the scratch golfers' fault. It's just the way it is. None of you would regularly play a round of ball golf against Tiger Woods for money or weekly 1-on-1 against Lebron James and no one would blame you for not doing so. Regardless, if they spotted you a few strokes/points, you'd be more likely to consider doing it more frequently than if they didn't. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone to sincerely disagree with that.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby 12StonesScott » Wed May 16, 2012 4:52 pm

JeremyO wrote:If the scratch golfers want more non-scratch golfers to show up regularly, then the answer cannot be, "they should show up, pay money and expect to lose 99% of the time."

That might be "fair" from a skill and talent perspective, but it's motivation to stay home for guys that aren't on that level and know it. If scratch golfers don't want non-scratch guys there, then the problem takes care of itself. Most people will stay away until they can compete and the pool of players will always be small.

I don't see anyone who is arguing against the handicap putting forth an alternative solution or admitting that they want to keep the player group small.


For better or worse, that's been the culture in the disc golf world for as long as there've been tournaments that paid in cash -- by the second one, the better players were looking for ways to get more players to play on the "pro" side, take their whipping, donate their money, and say "thank you, sir; may I have another." There's no shortage of guys out there whining about how little money gets paid out in Open in most tournaments, how the amateurs are taking up all the slots in full events and keeping pros from signing up, how am divisions should always be trophy only so that all the cash goes to the pro field, yada yada yada. Only a few of them seem to be willing to do the things it will take to grow participation in the sport overall, which is the only way that general interest in disc golf is going to grow to the point where major events draw sufficient sponsorship bucks to make payouts in Open worth the time and energy it takes to develop the skills to compete. Seems they'd rather play against the same seven other guys every week, beat their chests and talk smack, and just shuffle the same paltry stack of sweaty sawbucks from hand to hand.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby Sergio Martinez » Wed May 16, 2012 9:38 pm

Three divisions:

Beginner

Am

Pro

You start in beginner and move up. Now the beginner has some reason to get better unlike the handicap system which actually gives the beginner a reason to get worse.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby djester#2 » Thu May 17, 2012 12:38 am

I've been playing in the open pro division since 1999. I have never won a pdga sanctioned tournament. If a player stays in the same division and doesn't move up, it hurts things in many ways.
1. Bigger fields in every division except Open Pro.
2. Pro division attendants stay the same, thus the same players win.
3. Am's & others see only the same pro's winning & feel that they'd never have a chance to win.
4. More pro's into the open = more chance to win money. It's pretty simple.

Think about it...
7 of the regular pro's + 25 newly introduced pro's = deeper payout & quite a few newly introduced pro's catching some of the payout.
Am's move up to Pro, & it trickles down to open up other divisions for players to move up.
You'd be surprised how much you advance just by being around a better playing group.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby djester#2 » Thu May 17, 2012 12:44 am

12StonesScott wrote:
JeremyO wrote:If the scratch golfers want more non-scratch golfers to show up regularly, then the answer cannot be, "they should show up, pay money and expect to lose 99% of the time."

That might be "fair" from a skill and talent perspective, but it's motivation to stay home for guys that aren't on that level and know it. If scratch golfers don't want non-scratch guys there, then the problem takes care of itself. Most people will stay away until they can compete and the pool of players will always be small.

I don't see anyone who is arguing against the handicap putting forth an alternative solution or admitting that they want to keep the player group small.


For better or worse, that's been the culture in the disc golf world for as long as there've been tournaments that paid in cash -- by the second one, the better players were looking for ways to get more players to play on the "pro" side, take their whipping, donate their money, and say "thank you, sir; may I have another." There's no shortage of guys out there whining about how little money gets paid out in Open in most tournaments, how the amateurs are taking up all the slots in full events and keeping pros from signing up, how am divisions should always be trophy only so that all the cash goes to the pro field, yada yada yada. Only a few of them seem to be willing to do the things it will take to grow participation in the sport overall, which is the only way that general interest in disc golf is going to grow to the point where major events draw sufficient sponsorship bucks to make payouts in Open worth the time and energy it takes to develop the skills to compete. Seems they'd rather play against the same seven other guys every week, beat their chests and talk smack, and just shuffle the same paltry stack of sweaty sawbucks from hand to hand.


Great point of view there Scott. That's a really narrow way to look at things.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby 12StonesScott » Thu May 17, 2012 2:11 am

Sergio Martinez wrote:Three divisions:

Beginner

Am

Pro

You start in beginner and move up. Now the beginner has some reason to get better unlike the handicap system which actually gives the beginner a reason to get worse.


Sorry, but no. First off, every handicap system (and certainly the ones used at ERP in the past) gives the player only some fraction (75-90%, typically) of the difference between their average past performance and whatever the standard is (par, or average tournament SSA at ERP when I ran things). That means you still have to play better than your handicap to be competitive -- play worse and you finish behind the guys who're playing at or better than the level their handicap would predict. In the Rec division, the stakes are so small (bragging rights and points toward end-of-the-year finishing order, which has usually meant somewhere between $10 and $100 worth of merch or vouchers -- pretty small payout for showing up and paying your $2 at least ten or fifteen times during the year) that there's very little tangible incentive to sandbag for a higher handicap, and if anyone tries it they're generally not very convincing and the rest of the field figures it out pretty quickly. And once you shoot well enough to win once or twice with an inflated handicap, it starts going back down.

Second, in purely empirical terms, if you look back at the results on Disc Golf Scene for the Rec division at ERP over the two years that the results are there, you'll see that no one who showed up with any frequency got worse over the course of a season. No one. Someone might have a bad round one week and have their handicap go up by a point or two, but over the long term nearly everyone's handicap got lower as they got better. This race to the bottom that you suggest results from using handicaps just Did. Not. Happen.

And as has been pointed out, without handicaps a player has greater incentive to stay in a lower division as long as possible. Why donate in Open every week when you could be winning in Rec? For the guys who expect to cash every week in Open, the handicap generally can only hurt them, by giving lesser players a chance to break into the money every once in while. But there'll be more cash to contend for if there are guys in mix who'd otherwise stay in Rec without handicaps.

That being said, there seems to be a consensus that the Open division should be scratch, and that's fine with me. But I don't see any reason why we should scuttle an approach that brought 75 different players out to compete in Rec at least once over the last two years if, as a club, our goal is to increase participation.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby JeremyO » Thu May 17, 2012 9:25 am

djester#2 wrote:I've been playing in the open pro division since 1999. I have never won a pdga sanctioned tournament. If a player stays in the same division and doesn't move up, it hurts things in many ways.
1. Bigger fields in every division except Open Pro.
2. Pro division attendants stay the same, thus the same players win.
3. Am's & others see only the same pro's winning & feel that they'd never have a chance to win.
4. More pro's into the open = more chance to win money. It's pretty simple.

Think about it...
7 of the regular pro's + 25 newly introduced pro's = deeper payout & quite a few newly introduced pro's catching some of the payout.
Am's move up to Pro, & it trickles down to open up other divisions for players to move up.
You'd be surprised how much you advance just by being around a better playing group.



That's all well and good, but it completely glosses over new players that have been at it for less than a year (or less that two years if they play infrequently.) Most of these people shoot mid-high 60's at ERP. They can't fathom shooting high 40's to low 50's, and thus are acutely aware that they are not going to win any sort of competition with people who can.

Your answer is what I said it can't be: "show up, pay to lose 99% of the time, get enough people to do the same and you'll get the scraps, eventually you might break the ceiling." That's completely discouraging to a significant pool of potential new league players, and the justification that "we've been doing it and losing for 13 years, we only win every once in a while ourselves" isn't justification for them. It's MORE de-motivation because you've just laid out quite clearly that they may not get frequent top payout even after paying dues for YEARS. What sane person submits themselves to that?

If it's going to take them multiple years to gain enough skill to legitimately compete to win in league play, then there's no sense in them playing league until they've developed that skill. By that time they may either quit or settle into casual-only golf because they've been playing outside the competitive circles for years, so who needs them?

Also on this one specifically:
djester#2 wrote:1. Bigger fields in every division except Open Pro.


Some people want a chance to win each time they compete. If that means intentionally playing against weaker competition, then that's what they'll do. This isn't unique to disc golf. It's inherit to competitive nature. In fact, several of the poker books out there that teach you to play advanced poker suggest doing this. Disc golf isn't going to expand by expecting the player base to wholesale go against this line of thinking.

djester#2 wrote:3. Am's & others see only the same pro's winning & feel that they'd never have a chance to win.


I disagree with this as well. Ams see the scores those guys shoot and realize they've never shot that well on their best day. It's then obvious that they shouldn't put money on the line to compete with the pros head-to-head until their game improves.

It boils down to this: Do you want to expand the competitive player pool or not? The way it's been done up to this point has gotten the pool to the size that it is. If you want to expand the pool, it has to be made more inviting to new people that know they can't compete with top players. Having multiple divisions is one way to do that, but in leagues that struggle with attendance that may lead to 3, 2 or even 1 person divisions.



I'm in no way laying all of this burden at your feet, just responding to your post.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby Imran » Thu May 17, 2012 3:47 pm

8)

I wish we had a popcorn eating emoticon, but I guess the shades guy will have to do.
damn..., that is one fine piece of plastic.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby 12StonesScott » Thu May 17, 2012 4:38 pm

Imran wrote:8)

I wish we had a popcorn eating emoticon, but I guess the shades guy will have to do.


Well don't just stand around gawking, man. Pick up some cans or smooth out some tee pads or something while you're here. :wave:
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby $Dollar$ » Thu May 17, 2012 4:59 pm

Hey JeremyO, scratch golfers weren't born scratch golfers. In your world, the better you get, the more you should be penalized with less people to play against. Does that sound right?


I sucked, I donated. I practiced, I improved. I don't suck (as much), I don't donate (as much).

None of you would regularly play a round of ball golf against Tiger Woods for money or weekly 1-on-1 against Lebron James and no one would blame you for not doing so.


Holy crap, are you serious? Anyone who really wanted to get better at whatever it is they do, would definitely take opportunities like that. Before I even had a rating I played Brad Hammock straight up for 5 or 10 bucks probably 20-30 times. I didn't expect to win, but I damn sure tried. And it showed because I got better and better. In fact, THE 1ST TIME I EVER BEAT HIM WAS IN A TOURNAMENT. If I had not basically paid for all those beatings (lessons) then I would never have gotten there.

I'm sure handicapping is here to stay. We live in the USA where it's cool to have no pride in what you do. This stuff don't fly in Europe and neither does playing AM forever. That's because of a thing called machismo.

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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby mrpbody33 » Thu May 17, 2012 5:36 pm

Imran wrote:8)

I wish we had a popcorn eating emoticon, but I guess the shades guy will have to do.

Image
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby Sergio Martinez » Thu May 17, 2012 6:07 pm

If someone wins a division other than pro they should be forced to move up. Solves that problem. If you're goal is not to get better then you should not be playing a tournament of any kind. If the goal is only to have fun and not for any real competition or hope of improvement then you should just play casual rounds.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby tack » Thu May 17, 2012 7:15 pm

Wow things got heated up on this board.
That being said, there seems to be a consensus that the Open division should be scratch, and that's fine with me. But I don't see any reason why we should scuttle an approach that brought 75 different players out to compete in Rec at least once over the last two years if, as a club, our goal is to increase participation.


I disagree. I think that a few people who use these boards have strong opinions. My opinion remains unchanged. I hope to see everyone out this Saturday morning and we can vote democratically when everyone is there. It is entirely unfair to players who very well may want to improve their game, enjoy competition, welcome the opportunity to learn from someone more experienced than they are and passionate about their hobby, but may not have the time to dedicate to it due to other commitments are railroaded because they can't participate in an online forum. Turnout will dictate outcome, if no one shows up, there is no league. If a majority of Open players want a heads up competition, I will work towards getting the league sanctioned so the people who lose can still improve their ratings, etc. etc. etc. The debate is exciting; hope to see you Saturday.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby craigd » Thu May 17, 2012 8:10 pm

tack wrote:hope to see you Saturday.


Yeah man, hope I can make it! I'm heading to Wes's on Sunday so we'll see if the wife is cool with me playing both weekend days. :? With all the discussion, one thing may have been missed and that's a big thank you for running the show! I know it takes a lot of time and energy and we all appreciate it. Looking forward to seeing a resolution that we can all live with and enjoying some peaceful yet competitive disc golf!
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby Rich Meade » Thu May 17, 2012 8:59 pm

Only way I'm on board for no handicap is if it's a PDGA sanctioned league.

If they are rated rounds, I'll be there every time. Because there is a measurable result, and "reward" for every round played, it'd be worth it to me to DONATE to "learn" from the pros, and I can concentrate on getting better and raising my rating.

Dollar, your logic in the Rec players playing up with you open guys is flawed, because the handicap system actually encourages it.

I'm happy to "donate", if I have a legitimate shot (albeit a small one) to cash. I don't mind having to shoot my best round ever at ERP (which would be a 61), and losing by 2 shots to you with my 8 handicap. But you (and all the open players) seem very very against the idea of me (rec players) having the round of my life and beating you by a shot..

There is a happy medium to handicapping.

I'd rather try and grow the sport, have more people come out, and enjoy themselves and the competition... than just fill the Open players pockets every other week.


One more note.. that I mentioned earlier...
You open players need to seriously count how many of you guys will come out each time singles happens. The smart bet (if you are trying to make money) is to just go to Alexander...

If you run it without a handicap (non-sanctioned), you'll be playing the same 5 guys every other weekend.
Occasionally someone will bump up, and donate... and then they'll decide to just go to Alexander.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby Rubiks » Thu May 17, 2012 9:47 pm

The following conclusions were drawn from playing league in Jacksonville, Florida. Down there you have the option of playing stroke play, handicap play, or both.

Very few people play both... Last week, no one played both.

Most intermediate/rec players play handicap. It is usually the same guys winning handicap week after week. These are the players with handicaps >10, because with the lack of consistency it is easier for anyone with a handicap that high to shoot four or five strokes under it.

Most advanced/pro players show up every week and only play scratch scoring. These are the guys who don't get any strokes or have to give back strokes, and have virtually no chance of cashing in handicap (and often times, even a top guy shooting the course record still wouldn't win). It's usually more competitive than handicap, and the same guys don't necessarily win every week.

The only guys left in no mans land are the guys with a handicap around 2-5. They are generally consistent enough that they don't have wild deviations away from their average scores and can't shoot four or five strokes better nearly as easily and less consistent intermediate/rec players. They also just aren't good enough to cash in scratch play on any regular basis. These players typically throw their lot in with the scratch players, as they (1) have a better chance at cashing there than in handicap and (2) would rather play with better competition.

Personally, I only ever cashed in handicap once. I established at +3, shot a -2, and took last cash with an adjusted -5. My current handicap is something like -5 or -6 so I'd have to shoot something like -10 for last cash and -15 for a shot to win. The top scratch scores are usually -8 or -9.

Here's my point: I advocate two divisions, scratch and handicap. Keep the money separate, but let guys buy into both if they want. Sometimes the scratch guys can get into handicap if the field is especially large, and sometimes the better handicap guys will buy into scratch if they're feeling good about it. And most of the people are happy most of the time.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby JeremyO » Thu May 17, 2012 9:53 pm

$Dollar$ wrote:Holy crap, are you serious? Anyone who really wanted to get better at whatever it is they do, would definitely take opportunities like that. Before I even had a rating I played Brad Hammock straight up for 5 or 10 bucks probably 20-30 times. I didn't expect to win, but I damn sure tried. And it showed because I got better and better. In fact, THE 1ST TIME I EVER BEAT HIM WAS IN A TOURNAMENT. If I had not basically paid for all those beatings (lessons) then I would never have gotten there.


Dollar,

The only flaw in your logic is the imbedded assumption that the way you did it is the only way and what everyone should do. I'm just pointing out that not everyone thinks that way and is willing to take that path. Thus if you want those people to come out and play competitively, there's gotta be some incentive to
get them to do so and some place where the guys who haven't paid all their dues yet can compete and win on a lesser level.

I'd actually argue that you're in the minority on this one. Nearly every sport has some sort of imbedded skill level tiering system:

Ball golf has handicaps and Pro/Am tournaments
Tennis has AM rating systems within USTA and ALTA, semi-pro tournaments and pro tournaments
Team sports like soccer, baseball and football have semi-pro leagues and various levels of pro leagues.

Not just in America either. European basketball leagues, English premier league soccer, Canadian football, Arena football, all the non-major tennis and golf tournaments, etc.

Rich and I just started playing last year. He's improved faster than I have, but we're both playing Int now. I'm not going to stay there forever and I doubt he is either. I can't speak for him, but I imagine that both of us have aspirations of giving the Open guys some serious competition at some point (all still while having fun,) but I'm not there yet. So it's good to compete with guys at my skill level occasionally and still come out on top.

Here's the kicker... We both played in the handicapped league at ERP last year and improved while we were doing so. I thought it was a good place to compete while I was (and still am) getting my game up when I couldn't contribute significantly to a winning score at Alex or big days at Redan doubles. I've got a little more confidence than I used to (though my scores still sometimes suck) so I've started to participate in more scratch leagues and doubles, but the handicapped Rec league at ERP was a great starting point last year. I still improved, and so did a lot of people in that league as per Scott's statistics.

I'm unlikely to be able to play this Saturday because I'm going to Eagle Eye on Sunday. I'm also kinda disappointed that the league isn't on a week night this year, but Tim's volunteering his time for this and I'm just thankful that someone can do it at all.

Btw Dollar, and anybody really... I'll happily play you heads up for $5-10 bucks anytime both our schedules are free. My only requirement is that the competition is friendly and you don't mind me congratulating you on good shots (after they've come to rest.)

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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby Rich Meade » Thu May 17, 2012 11:44 pm

I don't really think there is any real point to the handicap if there are two separate divisions.
This opinion of mine may be motivated by the likely hood of being one of the "tweeners" that has too low a handicap, but not good enough for scratch to be competitive in either division.

More and more, I think I'd rather just have it PDGA sanctioned... Maybe have two divisions, but both play for different purses.

If us "rec" players cant utilize our handicaps to play up to the "scratch" level, there is no reason to have them.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby mrpbody33 » Fri May 18, 2012 8:05 am

Rubiks wrote:Here's my point: I advocate two divisions, scratch and handicap. Keep the money separate, but let guys buy into both if they want. Sometimes the scratch guys can get into handicap if the field is especially large, and sometimes the better handicap guys will buy into scratch if they're feeling good about it. And most of the people are happy most of the time.

Chris provides an good option here that I don't want to get buried. Two divisions but you can buy into both.

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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby craigd » Fri May 18, 2012 8:23 am

Rubiks wrote:I advocate two divisions, scratch and handicap. Keep the money separate, but let guys buy into both if they want. Sometimes the scratch guys can get into handicap if the field is especially large, and sometimes the better handicap guys will buy into scratch if they're feeling good about it. And most of the people are happy most of the time.


Seconded...
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby tack » Fri May 18, 2012 8:43 am

mrpbody33 wrote:
Rubiks wrote:Here's my point: I advocate two divisions, scratch and handicap. Keep the money separate, but let guys buy into both if they want. Sometimes the scratch guys can get into handicap if the field is especially large, and sometimes the better handicap guys will buy into scratch if they're feeling good about it. And most of the people are happy most of the time.

Chris provides an good option here that I don't want to get buried. Two divisions but you can buy into both.

Image


I hadn't thought of the buying into both option, but it is an interesting idea. I do think though, that Scott's opinion about the Rec division not having anything wrong with it is valid, and the division currently plays on a points system for some payout later in the year.

My proposal is to vote on:
1) whether to convert the open division to a sanctioned division and run it heads up, possibly for slightly less money and let side action flow, OR

2) if a full conversion is not in the majority, does it make more sense to cap the handicap on the backside and decide upon a reasonable under par (-5, -4?) that triggers a heads up playoff for ranking, or to cap the frontside, and limit the players by their calculated handicap, say somewhere under 10 (i.e.-9, -8?).

3) I can offer the option of running the rec for cash payout, which makes my life easier and allows for an open player to play that field, although the buy-in for payout is $1.00, so at that money, it probably doesn;t make as much sense anyway.

From playing the league at ERP for the past couple years, I think the tweeners, like myself, who moved up with a -8 benefit the most from the handicap in the "open" which was mentioned previously, due to erratic scores. I, personally, have gotten better and shoot much more consistently, albeit not quite at a level to compete with the >980 rated golfer if they come out regularly. I do enjoy competing with guys that are better than me, so that's not a problem for me personally as I tend to improve by doing so. And, I absolutely agree with Rich, if it is for PDGA ranking, it is even more appealing to play, although I do think the field would maximize at a lower $ amount, probably $10 all in, 5 for payout, 3CTP, 1 ACE, and 1 club.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby Imran » Fri May 18, 2012 9:51 am

More popcorn please. :D
damn..., that is one fine piece of plastic.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby mrpbody33 » Fri May 18, 2012 11:27 am

Imran wrote:More popcorn please. :D

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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby Imran » Fri May 18, 2012 2:25 pm

:lol:
damn..., that is one fine piece of plastic.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby kade.erp » Fri May 18, 2012 5:16 pm

Pull up your panties and come out for scratch scoring. This generation of everybody wins a a trophy for every competition has pussied out America. You should work hard and be rewarded with that. Not divide into levels and ages and gender and handicapped and reward everybody... f'n ridiculous
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby tack » Sat May 19, 2012 1:29 pm

Successful first week! Seventeen total players, 10 playing heads up open, 7 playing HC rec. We have decided to aim for a sanctioned open division and the rec handicap division will play for swag of that has yet to be determined. Thanks again to everyone for coming out to support the course, and the club!
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby $Dollar$ » Mon May 21, 2012 2:02 pm

kade.erp wrote:Pull up your panties and come out for scratch scoring. This generation of everybody wins a a trophy for every competition has pussied out America. You should work hard and be rewarded with that. Not divide into levels and ages and gender and handicapped and reward everybody... f'n ridiculous



I really don't care who plays where with who and for how much. This was my only point.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby JeremyO » Mon May 21, 2012 6:09 pm

How did the PDGA league action come out? Have the ratings been calculated yet?

I'm curious as to whether the leagues will have the small sample size problems that the Perk round did for the USDGC playoff.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby tack » Mon May 21, 2012 6:18 pm

JeremyO wrote:How did the PDGA league action come out? Have the ratings been calculated yet?

I'm curious as to whether the leagues will have the small sample size problems that the Perk round did for the USDGC playoff.


The league has not been sanctioned yet, and therefore there is not an answer to your question.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby JeremyO » Mon May 21, 2012 8:11 pm

Cool. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Looking at the PDGA site, it appears that they don't calculate round ratings until the season is done.

Here's an example:
http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/ ... 1195828548


No idea what the weather conditions were like and I've never played that course, but there's a huge round rating swing week to week.

Ex. Looking at the Open players... a 46 in week 8 received a 992, but a 55 in week 10 received a 1012. The two players who shot those scores are 1 point difference in player rating.

I should be there next time, looking forward to league at ERP again.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby kade.erp » Thu May 24, 2012 12:40 pm

Jeremy, they will calculate weekly. I already have 3 rounds from a league in nc. Those have to be different layouts.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby codyroberts18 » Thu May 24, 2012 10:52 pm

I'm from out of town but coming in tomorrow. There will be no singles on Saturday correct?
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby Tokio » Thu May 24, 2012 11:51 pm

codyroberts18 wrote:I'm from out of town but coming in tomorrow. There will be no singles on Saturday correct?


You are correct. Im suggesting The alex for doubles in the morning if you want action saturday.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby HaveDiscsWillTravel » Fri May 25, 2012 11:51 pm

Are you guys playing tomorrow? I'm in town for the weekend looking to play!
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby edj42 » Wed May 30, 2012 7:51 pm

So is Saturday June 2 on for the singles?
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby 12StonesScott » Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 pm

edj42 wrote:So is Saturday June 2 on for the singles?


Magic 8 Ball says yes, unless Tim posts otherwise. I have my daughter's bat mitzvah this weekend, so won't be there myself, but as far as I know all systems are go.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby edj42 » Wed May 30, 2012 8:44 pm

thanks Scott... I scrolled down and could not find the post that listed the dates....10 am correct?
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby 12StonesScott » Thu May 31, 2012 9:23 am

edj42 wrote:thanks Scott... I scrolled down and could not find the post that listed the dates....10 am correct?


10 am start, 9:45 sign in.

Open schedule: http://www.discgolfscene.com/leagues/Ea ... 2/schedule

Rec schedule:
http://www.discgolfscene.com/leagues/Ea ... 2/schedule
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby tack » Thu May 31, 2012 5:25 pm

Sorry for the absence. League will be this Saturday, 9:45 sign in. $5 all in Rec for points and $10 all in open for cash, heads up. Rec will play red, open will play the blue layout. This month has five weekends, so hopefully we can run action 1st, 3rd and 5th weekend, but we'll see how it shapes up. Hope to see you Saturday morning.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby tack » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:29 pm

ERP league is now a sanctioned event. Come join us, money will be $11 all in, $7 no side action.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby craigd » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:45 pm

tack wrote:ERP league is now a sanctioned event. Come join us, money will be $11 all in, $7 no side action.


Awesome! How long are you doing the first league? Since it's only twice a month I'm wondering if you'll just do something like six rounds or stretch it out for a full 10 rounds. Either way I can't wait to play. Thanks for running it Tim and Roswell crew...
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby tack » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:10 am

craigd wrote:
tack wrote:ERP league is now a sanctioned event. Come join us, money will be $11 all in, $7 no side action.


Awesome! How long are you doing the first league? Since it's only twice a month I'm wondering if you'll just do something like six rounds or stretch it out for a full 10 rounds. Either way I can't wait to play. Thanks for running it Tim and Roswell crew...


That's a great question. I spoke with the PDGA about the frequency of our league and was informed that posting weekly generates projected round ratings. I am hoping that this will be satisfactory, but am conscious of the desire to get ratings to reflect current rounds. The only barrier to submitting a "season" in under 10 weeks is the $25 league fee, so I suppose as long as we are self sufficient enough to buy a new league early, then we will probably do that.

How has the crowd been concerning this issue out at Oregon? You get there quicker because you're weekly, but does that stop the grumbling?
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby craigd » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:54 pm

tack wrote:
craigd wrote:
tack wrote:ERP league is now a sanctioned event. Come join us, money will be $11 all in, $7 no side action.


Awesome! How long are you doing the first league? Since it's only twice a month I'm wondering if you'll just do something like six rounds or stretch it out for a full 10 rounds. Either way I can't wait to play. Thanks for running it Tim and Roswell crew...


That's a great question. I spoke with the PDGA about the frequency of our league and was informed that posting weekly generates projected round ratings. I am hoping that this will be satisfactory, but am conscious of the desire to get ratings to reflect current rounds. The only barrier to submitting a "season" in under 10 weeks is the $25 league fee, so I suppose as long as we are self sufficient enough to buy a new league early, then we will probably do that.

How has the crowd been concerning this issue out at Oregon? You get there quicker because you're weekly, but does that stop the grumbling?


At first a few people didn't like the idea of the round ratings not being included in updates until the full season was completed and turned in to the PDGA. Now that everyone has a better understanding of how it works, no one seems to mind really. Wayne enters the scores after each round so everyone can see their unofficial rating and that's usually enough to tide everyone over. With that said, if you are only doing rounds twice a month in a 10 round league then it could take over 5 months before those ratings become official, longer if the season ends just after a rating update. That could create some impatience. For that reason I think I would do the minimum, if like you suggest, the $25 needed to cover the league fee is available more frequently than originally anticipated.

I have a suggestion. For ERP, given that it's only played twice a month, I'm imagining a six round league playing each pad twice. Of course that's assuming the same format (first and third Saturdays). At six rounds/three months per league (4 per year) you could name each league for the seasons, Spring-Summer-Fall-Winter leagues. I wonder if there's a way for the club/players to come up with the $100 per year PDGA fee that it would take to run four $25 "seasonal" leagues? I for one would be willing to throw in a little extra through buy-ins to help supplement the costs and I sure others would too. Given the amount of players I don't think it would take much. Just some food for thought...
Last edited by craigd on Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby JeremyO » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:50 pm

Might be worth discussing at the next event or meeting.

I'd prefer shorter leagues and figuring out a way to come up with the $25. I can see some negatives to a round from 6 months ago finally getting integrated into someones actual rating.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby tack » Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:37 pm

Might be worth discussing at the next event or meeting.

I'd prefer shorter leagues and figuring out a way to come up with the $25. I can see some negatives to a round from 6 months ago finally getting integrated into someones actual rating.


I am sure we won't wait 6 months. Mostly, the turnout will dictate the frequency and as long as turnout stays as it has, we should have no problems doing whatever makes the most sense.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby tack » Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:38 pm

ERP action heats up this Saturday. Two options to compete, one is in the newly PDGA sanctioned league, the other in the Rec division competing for points against your handicap. Sign in is at 9:45, hope to see you there.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby Tokio » Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:55 pm

Action 2mrrow? Just checking to see if anyone else is thinking about coming.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby 12StonesScott » Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:40 pm

Tokio wrote:Action 2mrrow? Just checking to see if anyone else is thinking about coming.


Tim mentioned earlier today that he'll be there. Turnout may be a little light -- a handful of the Open regulars will be at Hotlanta, as will Ari and I -- but hopefully there'll be enough folks there to make it interesting.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby craigd » Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:59 pm

Tokio wrote:Action 2mrrow? Just checking to see if anyone else is thinking about coming.


I'm planning on being there. My son should be with me too.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby tack » Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:42 pm

Singles action this Saturday morning! 9:45 check-in, try to tee off at 10:00. Please bring $10's, 5's and 1's to check in with, I am low on change! $11 all in sanctioned open, $5 all in HC rec..... Hope you can make it out.
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Labor Day Weekend Saturday Singles Action

Postby 12StonesScott » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:44 pm

Singles action this Saturday morning! 9:45 check-in, try to tee off at 10:00. Please bring $10's, 5's and 1's to check in with! $11 all in sanctioned open, $5 all in HC rec..... Hope you can make it out. Filling in for Tim this weekend.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby themoneyteam » Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:18 pm

Open playing blacks?
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby ryanwatson » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:10 pm

themoneyteam wrote:Open playing blacks?

i thought open always played blacks.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby 12StonesScott » Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:54 pm

themoneyteam wrote:Open playing blacks?


Yeah, unless there's a consensus among those who show up to do something different. But that's about as likely as me playing open straight up and not finishing DFL, so I'm pretty sure that it'll be blacks.
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby da4nex » Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:04 pm

So is the average turnout for Sat AM singles is what, about a dozen or so? I'm thinking on heading over tomorrow, let me know if there is anything to know besides what's been posted in this thread.

Thanks,
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby blueninjaman » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:00 pm

Is this league still running?
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby ryanwatson » Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:32 pm

blueninjaman wrote:Is this league still running?

as far as i know yes
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby tack » Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:46 pm

blueninjaman wrote:Is this league still running?


Unfortunately, I have not been able to do it lately and I don't see it starting back up soon, as my schedule has become too unpredictable for the time being :evil: . I will post something next time I can do it. If you were a player in the sanctioned league, the scores will be in before the next update. I am also considering doing an ace race for the players that were active in each league sometime soon, as there is a bit of cash in that pot. I need to calculate payouts for the weeks Scott ran league in the rec division and the rec players can put their points toward the discs we have on hand.

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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby themoneyteam » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:50 pm

Thanks for running things TIm. It has been much appreciated
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby da4nex » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:28 am

Anybody running Singles action tomorrow? If so, at what time?

Thanks,
Alan
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Re: 2012 Saturday Singles

Postby ryanwatson » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:49 pm

no more singles action as of now
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