comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

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comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Corndawg13 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:38 am

Without quoting, and by easily summing things up....

I commented about Lenora being a park people usually say they play once and be done with it.....Dollar replied to that saying that is the way that he and other pros feel about CP unless there is a tourney there ran by Keith.

So, in a non-hostile way....I present the question.

WHAT DO PRO'S AND ANYONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER NOT LIKE ABOUT OLE CP, AND WHAT SUGGESTIONS ARE THERE TO ALTER IT TO BETTER FIT THEIR LIKING??
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Funky Bobby J » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:11 pm

I often think about this too. Obviously, CP is a big upgrade over Lenora, but in actuality there is very little risk reward here. On the woods holes, there are few options; it's just hit the lane - no thinking involved. Unless you live in the area, it's not a course that you would take a hike to play. Couple the length with lousy t-pads, it's just not a course people want to travel to play. I feel the same way about White Oak - there are a few fun throws, but all in all - it is really boring to play. Additionally, with up to 6 blind throws (depending on pin positions)and drainage issues, it's not a course I'd drive 90 minutes to play.

I think the changes and clean up have made the CP layout better, but I think it's a fairly unimaginative track. It is my home course and I am glad to have it, but given the option - I travel to other courses more often than not. Some teepads & trees would help along with a close look at the pads and pins locations would be helpful, but I doubt that it would draw players from a distance to play. The park seems reluctant to drop any dough in Disc Golf and FCDGC does not have the resources to dump that kind of time and money into what it would take. My 2 cents.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Big Red » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:28 pm

I think it is just poorly laid out overall. The land on the otherside of the creek from hole 6 is part of the property as well but was not used for some reason? It just seems like it could be so much more.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Corndawg13 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:31 pm

I totally agree with you, except I play CP a few times a week because it is fun to me and only 5 minutes away.

However, if it is simple things like it is a "hit your spot course and go on" park then CP can be changed easily. All we have to do to change it up is move the PADS, have Nathan re-make signs as he has said he will do and re-think some holes. Nathan and I played some tie-breaker made up holes out there saturday and had a blast.

Reguarding what you have said, moving stuff around does seem to be the only avenue to take in making CP better and/or more challenging. It does suck that the county has no interest, nor funds, in bettering disc golf and the new Northwest Community Park does not seem to be coming anytime soon. You yourself had said a while back about having a fundraiser tourney, is that still an option? Maybe we should get an active group together and put together a sponsor package of sorts in an attempt to bring more money into the course fund. Maybe the GDGO can share!!!! J/K!

I am going to go play now and play random tees and think more-so about what could be different. I still love moving 8's pad to the left of 7's basket and throwing over the hills and the valley, which makes it two blind shots to the basket!
Last edited by Corndawg13 on Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Corndawg13 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:33 pm

Go more into detail if you could Big Red, what would you do to CP if you could?? Keep in mind, if you will, that any changes will come soley from work put in by dg'ers it seems at this time.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Funky Bobby J » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:55 pm

The land across the creek was nixed by the park early on to Jason Dowling when he was designing the course. I know the treament plant over there had something to do with it.

I never went forward with the fundraiser because I do not know what I am raising funds for. "Everyone come out to Central pay some dough and we'll do something with it" does not exactly inspire the masses. If we want to do quality fly18 pads and put them down properly, the maintenance crew will raise hell if they are above ground level at all (which they would likely need to be - which means they get hacked up by mowers or we have to put some sort of buffer around the pad). There needs to be some serious meetings with P&R.

I am all for doing a tourney out there and am happy to run it. We need some help from the park. Anything that increases upkeep for P&R is going to be nixed.

Lastly, those who have not played Central in a year or two, should come out. It really has seen some nice improvements and clean up. I do not think that it is very exciting for top Pros, but for the rest of the masses, it is a good test especially with the wind.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Big Red » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:18 pm

I had talked to Jason years ago and he said he could have used it? I guess I understood him wrong.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Funky Bobby J » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:34 pm

They initially said yes and then nixed it. We were all disappointed. I do not know if they had the bike trail in the works. That is a neat piece of property. I had heard that the water treatment plant did not want anything near it, and then voila - the bike trail went right by there.

Honestly, if we wanted to make a clean slate with the whole park - there are some really cool options, but maintenance could be an issue. The woods next to 9 and 10 are sparse in places, the power line cut and the woods to either side could make for some interesting holes.

Since they have been cleaned up and a few more tress removed, holes 3 & 4 are much better (still a little silly from the blue tees). Hole 2 is much tougher now with the trees lining the fairway on both sides. The woods holes have been cleaned up a lot and the tee pads tweaked. Ultimately, it is what it is. I doubt that anyone would be willing to start from scratch, and I do not know if it would really be worth it.

Take hole 6. It is one of the most scenic holes on the course, but it is not really well thought out. For my money, the white pad is the most interesting. There is real risk/reward - lay up short of the creek, try a flick thru the larger left side hole, try to throw right at it, or throw a huge hyzer - a really cool pad. For 90% of us, the blue and reds are just throw short of the creek, throw across, and putt in. We take 3 80% of the time with an occassional 2 and sometimes a 4. If the red pad was 25 feet to 30 feet closer, even rag arms like me start to think about trying to slide under the oaks. But all the pads are in the way of hole 5.

It is really a mediocre tournament course due to pad & pin location. Keith & Rand have done a pretty good job mitigating the issue, but a total rethink might really help for overall course play. It would take some really serious work...
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Big Red » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:41 pm

Funky Bobby J wrote:They initially said yes and then nixed it. We were all disappointed. I do not know if they had the bike trail in the works. That is a neat piece of property. I had heard that the water treatment plant did not want anything near it, and then voila - the bike trail went right by there.

Honestly, if we wanted to make a clean slate with the whole park - there are some really cool options, but maintenance could be an issue. The woods next to 9 and 10 are sparse in places, the power line cut and the woods to either side could make for some interesting holes.

Since they have been cleaned up and a few more tress removed, holes 3 & 4 are much better (still a little silly from the blue tees). Hole 2 is much tougher now with the trees lining the fairway on both sides. The woods holes have been cleaned up a lot and the tee pads tweaked. Ultimately, it is what it is. I doubt that anyone would be willing to start from scratch, and I do not know if it would really be worth it.

Take hole 6. It is one of the most scenic holes on the course, but it is not really well thought out. For my money, the white pad is the most interesting. There is real risk/reward - lay up short of the creek, try a flick thru the larger left side hole, try to throw right at it, or throw a huge hyzer - a really cool pad. For 90% of us, the blue and reds are just throw short of the creek, throw across, and putt in. We take 3 80% of the time with an occassional 2 and sometimes a 4. If the red pad was 25 feet to 30 feet closer, even rag arms like me start to think about trying to slide under the oaks. But all the pads are in the way of hole 5.

It is really a mediocre tournament course due to pad & pin location. Keith & Rand have done a pretty good job mitigating the issue, but a total rethink might really help for overall course play. It would take some really serious work...


I think it would probably be worth it. I think the property could hold a real world class course. Honestly I have never put a great deal of thought into a new layout but my feeling has always been that it could be better. I will put some serious thought into it now that this discussion has come up.
Last edited by Big Red on Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Corndawg13 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:41 pm

These are all really good points.

FBJ: I have heard that P & R is not in favor of doing much more work out there since they supposively owe the course 10 anchors. That deoes stink.

I just spent about 3 hours out there thinking about new pad placements, and throwing from them, that would make it tougher and more challenging for pro's and casual am's alike while still keeping good flow with the course. I also kept both forehand and backhand shots in mind, I throw both and did throw both. We would only have to move pads, make new signs, and move 12H basket to the newly formed "DAVE KINNEY HOLE." We would also move 12B basket to either the outside position, or past it about 100 feet. This new layout or whatever you want to call it makes CP longer, more fun, and definitley tougher for pros. It incorporates more hyzer holes, anny holes, forehand/lefty friendly holes, longer holes, and makes some fun mando's. I would be glad to write the plans down and/or play with some locals one day and play the layout.

After playing nine holes with Phil Arthur, I now understand what he, and other pro's like. CP, like Flyboy, can easily be changed.
Last edited by Corndawg13 on Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Corndawg13 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:46 pm

I did walk the area behind hole 6 and we could fit a tightly wooded hole around 250' in there to the right of 6 and along the creek. We could also put a hole around 400' on the hill favoring an anny throw. Then we could play a shot downhill through the woods a little around 230' I think and come out behind basket 6.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Funky Bobby J » Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:30 pm

If you look at Houck's articles, it talks about being able to approach holes in different ways. Generally speaking, we are still talking about a wide open hole or a hit the gap hole. The thing that makes great courses are these type holes coupled with ones where a golfer has a variety of ways to go depending on comfort level, wind, risk/reward - etc. I do not know if we can achieve that much variety at central.

Throwing from the gold pad on 8 is more interesting than the area to the right of the creek. You have the hill, low canopy, and some hazards left and right coupled with the need to get a solid drive out to ensure a 3. It's a much better flow than to throw 7 (another dull hole - although kind of fun to throw).

9 is a decent hole, but look at heading into the woods for 10 instead of walking back down 9's fairway to blue or 25' from 9's basket to the red pad.

What about the pin for 5 being in the area where the white tee for 5 is and swing the pads up betweeb the storage shed and maintenance building (creek in front and behind) or moving the pads for 6 as suggested before. Hole 1 should be played as a par 4 to 2's basket permenantly. Lose 3 & 4 because they cannot get mowers over there without trouble. 12A to 12B - par 4 perm hole - a great hole. 12C blue is a solid hole. The red pad should be 20' in front of the blue. 12 E to 12 F's basket in the right hand position bringing in play the parking lot and fenced area on the second shot (blue & red pads are both valid).

16, 17, and 18 should be yanked as they encroach on ball fields and walking paths (really screws up the already disjointed flow tho). 15 long is a fun hole that needs to be tweaked so that a great shot can get you closer to the basket.

A lot of this stuff would hurt some folks feelings for work that has been done, and so many do not like change that getting consensus would be so tough.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Big Red » Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:10 pm

Could an on course meeting be set up to discuss this? This is where I think sentimental value needs to be put aside for improvement.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Funky Bobby J » Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:47 pm

Maybe Aaron, my feeling is that the vast majority of the locals will tell us to stick it. Who is actually going to come and execute the plan and not just spew about their ideas? It would be intersting to see what Keith, Rand, or some of the other pros think. There is great space and possibilities out there. Honestly, I am barely a local now. As the weather gets nicer, the boys and I will be out there more, but by and large I like to play elsewhere.

It is hard to tell folks to set emotions aside when they have so much emotional attachment.

Lastly, one point of view for staying the same is that there is a growing number of 2-disc Barneys that are playing out there. The course has a lot of traffic as it is. This has happened much more slowly at Central than other courses. We need to think about how this will impact them - will it inspire them to learn more or quit? I'm not judging wither way - just asking the question. If the P&R does not want to put time or money into the joint, staying the way it is might be the way to go as it will always be just a recreational facility and not one for serious competition.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Corndawg13 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:14 pm

I will just throw my idea out here, I am willing to have an on course meeting to look at new options.

1 Blue be moved to 10 feet to the right of the practice basket, Red moved to 10 feet to the left of the current 1 Blue Pad, White moved to the current Red.

2 Blue be about 20 feet behind and to the left of current blue, Red be 10 feet to the left of current blue and white be about 20 feet in from of current red.

3 Red be moved back 20 feet.

4 stays as is, we can mow it ourselves for upkeep.

5 Blue be in front of and to the right of the maintenance shed, Red about 20 feet and to the right of new blue tee, white where current Red tee is. Your basket location seems good as well. Could have three locations for 5's baskets!

6 blue be behind bench, Red beside the tree and white stays

7 stays as is.

8 blue across from walking path behind 18, Red be about 25 feet in front of that and White stays where it is.

9 blue stays, Red moves back about ten feet and to the right 20 feet,

10 either stays or we can make clearing in the woods to throw out of and make true anny or forehand lines.

11 stays, 12 stays. 12A stays.

12B is a new hole throwing down the hill and about 30 feet behind and ten feet to the right of pole for Red, blue about 30 feet behind red and white down where 12A blue is currently. Throwing to the left where the log is on the ground with a basket on the woods line and an alternate in the woods about 50 feet, already a gap there.

12C Blue pad at the bottom of the hill throwing up to the current 12B outside pin area but moving the pin back about 150 feet in between two trees back there. Red pad be where the rock is on the tree line walking back up the hill and in the woods about ten feet, another anny line. White stays as is.

I too think 12C blue is great and putting Red at the beginning of the gap would be awesome,and keep white where it is.

12D is the new hole and stays.

12E, 12F, 12G all stay, I do agree that hobbit hole to the 12F basket would be nice though!

12I would be teeing from current 12H and throwing to current 12I basket. Blue pad to the right and up on the hill a bit from current red pad. Red pad down and to the left, white where current 12I red tee is. Would need to clean up a gap to throw through for forehand and anny shots, creates a long hyzer bomb to get to 12I current fairway. so take out 12G basket and put it at new 12B hole.

13 Red moves up the hill teeing off between the tree and sidewalk.

14 and 15 stays

16 basket moved back about 50 feet.

17 blue moved 20 feet behind 17 red with basket moved back about 10 feet and to the right about 10 feet.

18 red moved 20 feet in front of and to the left of blue tee. White becomes current red.

Probably much easier to show in person.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby keith johnson » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:30 pm

I have kept out of this thread until now to see what was being proposed - but I would kindly like to chime in now.

If anyone is planning any changes the FIRST thing that needs to be done is to get with Dave Kenney who is the club liason AND Matt Pate, as without Matt being on board, it won't matter what anyone would like to get done as he RUNS the park including the course.

My suggestion would be to get those powers to be together with the ideas people agree on changing and present it as a comprehensive plan showing the park department things that will NOT impact their maintenence OR budget and it might be something that would get accomplished. I would also PLEASE ASK that there are NO MAJOR changes done to the course until after SEPTEMBER as the AO and GSSS Finale A-Tier layouts are set and I would really not like to have to start coming up with another 21 hole Supersized layout in mid-stream.
I have tweaked some of the tee pads to eliminate the "tweener everyone gets a 3" holes in the layout, and 99% of the changes are from talking with top pros - like Climo, Dollar, Mcoy, Avery, Feldberg, Craig Leyva and others along with seeing how things play out with my own eye.

One of the great things about Central (whether you like the couurse or not) is that it has VARIETY with multiple tee pads and basket positions, and that you can ALWAYS play whatever course configuration you want anytime you go there (including Supersized layouts that flow well), which you CAN NOT do at most of the other courses in the metro area.
It is a course that if you just "pick a color tee pad" and play it has about 3-6 good holes in any one color out of the 18, but also has the freedom to play it any way you want(like throwing hole 8 from the path behind 18's basket)

This is all just MY opinion as a Forsyth Club Board member as well as someone who spends alot of time there thinking up ways to make it better while working WITH The PARK management as NOTHING will aggravate them more than to have people just change things around willy-nilly, because they want to change things for change sake, without having the prior approval of MATT Pate.

12 D is a prime example as Matt gave me carte blanche to put a nice hole in that section with the main concern being to "LEAVE THE TRACK ALONE" without ever saying that out loud. I have dealt with City, County, and State park managers for 15 years, and you have to learn to work WITH them if you want things done, and to NOT do stupid things (like leave beer cans or bottles on the woods part of the course in a DRY park - as then they can just yank the baskets to "teach you a lesson" - or even worse when you do stupid things like bring beer kegs in your trunk to a private course (the CRUCIBLE) and make it EXTREMELY difficult to get the parks Dept to let anyone have any more Events there.

All this boils down to one simple concept - all it takes is ONE idiot to ruin it for EVERYONE else who had nothing to do with it. So please respect the fact that even though your tax dollars are paying for the park - the PARK board can decide what sports are at that park - and trust me when I say that disc golf takes up ALOT of park acreage without bringing in very much or absolutely no income to the park, so please understand that WE NEED THEM - not the other way around.

This is just my opinion, and I hope it is taken in the spirit it was written, and not as a detraction for anyone looking to improve things working with the park in the correct way.

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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Corndawg13 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:43 pm

Of course things would have to be done in accordance with the required personnel. The only real hole changes in my random idea is to take out 12H and make a new 12B. Other then that, teepads are just moved a little bit to bring in obstacles on the course that are not being used to make holes better. They may also be moved to make more shots available that are not already in use. Nothing would be drastically altered to make any tournies difficult to be put on by anyone. Parks and Rec would not have to do anything. I just think the best way for P & R and the county to help CP in the future is to do as you say and create a plan of action and present it to them. Oh, AND THEN ACTUALLY DO IT!
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby keith johnson » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:52 pm

You were talking about moving pads and changing signs, which means moving tee sign posts - which means the park needs to know what is going on as they are the ones who hit sleeves now when they supposedly "know where things are". You can only imagine how many more pads would get chewed up if you moved them somewhere new :mrgreen:
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Corndawg13 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:57 pm

Corndawg13 wrote:Of course things would have to be done in accordance with the required personnel.


keith johnson wrote:You can only imagine how many more pads would get chewed up if you moved them somewhere new :mrgreen:



I never said I would randomly go move pads on my own.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby keith johnson » Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:47 pm

Just being sure - as to some people "required personnel" could be themself and whoever is standing close by to help them move the pad.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Corndawg13 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:51 pm

Haha, well that is not me but THANK YOU for making sure! After 4 hours to put one hole in, I will not really want to do much work to CP alone. I finally birdied 12D today!
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby nixonrocks » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:29 am

I've been playing at Central Park off and on since it opened way back when. I like the current layout just fine (of course I am a rec player, what do I know?) But to be honest, I don't care what you do to the course as long as I can still go play it :mrgreen: I do think that moving some holes away from the walking and mountain bike trails and softball fields would be nice...hole 17 in particular. It always makes me nervous to throw to 17 long during softball season, especially because all the co-ed softball people are A$$ holes. I guess that's part of risk/reward though...I don't care for that sentiment stuff that keeps getting mentioned, evolution is inevitable. I don't have any real suggestions or solutions to any of the issues, just giving some insight from a recreational player. I may get ripped on, but oh well.

Speaking of Central Park and recreational division...is it too early to ask where the rec division will play the Forsyth County Open at? If it's too early to ask, I understand. Maybe a hint?? :) j/k
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby keith johnson » Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:10 am

nixonrocks wrote:
Speaking of Central Park and recreational division...is it too early to ask where the rec division will play the Forsyth County Open at? If it's too early to ask, I understand. Maybe a hint?? :) j/k


If the layout works that I'm setting up for the ATL OPEN to use, it may be Central - keep looking and I'll post for sure as things get closer.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby nixonrocks » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:49 am

keith johnson wrote:
nixonrocks wrote:
Speaking of Central Park and recreational division...is it too early to ask where the rec division will play the Forsyth County Open at? If it's too early to ask, I understand. Maybe a hint?? :) j/k


If the layout works that I'm setting up for the ATL OPEN to use, it may be Central - keep looking and I'll post for sure as things get closer.


Cool! Thanks! I'm really looking forward to it. It'll be cool if we can get another course in the county somewhere and could have like a 2-day Forsyth County open, where you play Central one day and play the new course the next day. Or even one round at the new course and one at Central. Someone may know the answer to this, but is that how they did the Gwinett County Open? (I know that it's misspelled)
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby keith johnson » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:00 am

nixonrocks wrote: Someone may know the answer to this, but is that how they did the Gwinett County Open? (I know that it's misspelled)



1 round at Lenora and 1 at Alexander same day
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby brick » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:43 am

I first played Central right after it opened, with Jason Dowling, and Phil Arthur. I remember Phil and I both being excited at the thought of what a great piece of land it was for disc golf and I remember discussing with Jason how the course had a "USDGC" type potential. My assumption at the time was that the course would evolve to a championship caliber state. I guess that has taken longer than I thought it would, but I am happy to see the interest in redesigning it.

In my opinion, the property Central Park is on caters itself to a long, relatively open course containing several multi-shot holes (more than are there now). The creek should incorporate more of the long holes (like current hole 6? The hole after the maintenance shed...that is a well designed hole). Also, I think it would only make sense to involve the best pros around in the redesign-they will be able to suggest changes that are both fair and challenging to all skill levels.

Just a few suggestions. Keep up the good work everyone!
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Corndawg13 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:05 pm

Good points Brick.

The only problem that anything with CP gets to the discussion/idea stage and STAYS THERE. I think I will get a hold of Dollar and Phil and see what their thoughts on CP are, work with them to make it more challenging, yet good for all levels and see if I cannot put something together to present to the masses, and those that are required in the process. Someone has to just do it. I am doing a lot but also have a good deal of free time. Work part-time, school part-time and all these pro football tryouts do not exactly take up a lot of time believe or not. I am trying to get a course installed in DAWSON COUNTY, making changes or at least putting forth a plan for it at CP could actually go a long way in showing Dawson P & R how serious and commited I really am. CP is my home course and I like it a lot, but as everyone else says, it could be great. The problem is the county and P & R either have not been presented a pheasible plan or do not care about DG. However, if they can build TWO million dollar rec centers, 10K to finish CP should not be a big deal!!!
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby keith johnson » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:22 pm

Go for it Bobby, but please remember you can't compare the REC center, soccer fields, and ball fields with money for Disc Golf, as for all of those things have park patrons that PAY the park to use them, where disc golfers pay NOTHING unless we rent a pavilion - which is a HUGE difference in the Park Management eyes, and why paying for those things is a no brainer, but 10 grand for Disc Golf is not seen as a top priority.

It's the nature of the beast.

But look at the things they have spent money on or let be done in the past year - kiosk, posts and signs on all the red tees, flags for the baskets, tree plantings, etc.

Don't go around thinking nothing has been done or that no one else cares about Central as Dave Kenney, and Bob Johnson and the club have been instrumental in working with them to get to where we are today.
Just because they or others that do alot of things behind the scenes don't post much on here doesn't mean NO ONE cares as you are insinuating.

You have a lot of enthusiam and time, but it needs to be channelled in the right way so that it blends with people that are already working with the park management instead of creating a new "bull in the china shop" path that may set things back if taken incorrectly by park management.

Just my opinion, and I appreciate the help you have given me working on the course.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Big Red » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:57 pm

Why not the propose the idea of putting in a drop box and make rounds cost $2 or something? There would be a lot of people who would cheat and not pay but it would bring in some revenue for the county as opposed to nothing.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby richardhead » Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:15 pm

I hate to disagree, but I don't think this is a trend that we need to start. Don't get me wrong, I've paid to play many times, but it was at a course that was worth the money. Unfortunately Central doesn't fit that description IMO. Private courses and State Park courses are one thing. Starting a trend of pay to play no matter where you go is unnecessary in my opinion. I realize you are only talking about Central at this point, but it wouldn't take long and all local courses will try to adopt this same thing.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Corndawg13 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:42 pm

Keith, I am not insinuating that noone at CP cares, I was at the work day last year where you spent 5 hours on holes 3 and 4 while Dave and I went around and put all the signs in the ground and worked on teepads. I think Terry was there as well, or maybe his name is Wayne. The problem with CP is that there are only about 5-10 active people who care enough to show up and work on the course from time to time. CP has changed a ton in a year as myself, you, dave, Dale and FBJ can attest to and it is a much better course now for it.

Trust me, nothing I will do will be outside of the loal box that makes up CP disc golfers. I play a lot with Cody, Mike, Nathan, and even Dave sometimes. I am smart enough to know that things have to be done a certain way and have to go through certain people. Thanks for your opinions and suggestions. I just really think CP could be something great if things are done the correct way, planned the correct way, presented the correct way and so forth.

We should be doing things like Oregon Park and having "friends of the park tournaments," Ice Bowls, Fundraisers, Ace Races. There are so many ways to mix things up at CP that people would surely come, IMO.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Corndawg13 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:52 pm

Phil Arthur responded saying he would be glad to help and to let him know what he can do. That is great, have not heard back from Dollar yet. I have a feeling CP will change for the better and in a way that everyone will truly enjoy.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Big Red » Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:00 pm

richardhead wrote:I hate to disagree, but I don't think this is a trend that we need to start. Don't get me wrong, I've paid to play many times, but it was at a course that was worth the money. Unfortunately Central doesn't fit that description IMO. Private courses and State Park courses are one thing. Starting a trend of pay to play no matter where you go is unnecessary in my opinion. I realize you are only talking about Central at this point, but it wouldn't take long and all local courses will try to adopt this same thing.


But what if it does lead to a better product in the end? Better courses and more courses I think would be worth spending small amounts of money for.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby nixonrocks » Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:38 pm

Corndawg13 wrote:Phil Arthur responded saying he would be glad to help and to let him know what he can do. That is great, have not heard back from Dollar yet. I have a feeling CP will change for the better and in a way that everyone will truly enjoy.


As a Dawson County-an as well as disc golfer, any chance that we could get their input whenever the Dawson stuff starts to roll?
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby keith johnson » Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:44 pm

Bobby -
Not all of this is dirctly directed at you only - it is also for others out there who read what you say and do things without thinking about the consequences. I know that YOU have been involved with the people involved with the park, but the "blanket" statements sometimes are seen by others as the fact that nothing is really being done, when the opposite is true.

I just would not like to see history repeat itself with good intentions done wrong thereby having the exact opposite effect the people that did it thought they would have.

I'll ALWAYS be happy to listen to your ideas and ALWAYS happy to have your assistance on work days which will be coming up soon to get the course ready for the ATL OPEN.

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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Corndawg13 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:00 pm

Ok, I understand, and thanks for pointing that out to others who may have taken it another direction.

You know Keith, we could just go ahead and put a new 12B, AKA "Dave Kinney Hole" in and take out 12H!! making the new 12I throw from the old 12H to the current 12I basket!!! One sweet hole there and the Dave Kinney hole is an awesome idea as well!! Just a thought.

It may need to be said that I intend this to be a suggesstion thread directed towards bringing in ideas as to why top level players do not prefer CP, and why. I think it is sad news that people like FBJ live close to CP, but choose to routinely play elsewhere. IMO that should change and pro level players should have a good layout at CP that makes them want to come play it. Am's could use a better challenge and risk/reward factor to make them better plaayers and Rec's could use a few more challenging holes as well.

In the long run and with the GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS, this would be a long process involving a lot of people. It is a challenge to "change things for the better" while making everyone happy. All this inspiration from me comes from having CP be my home course, playing courses recently like Perkerson and especially Flyboy. I come back to CP and think to myself, MAN THIS COURSE COULD BE SO MUCH BETTER WITH SUCH LITTLE WORK INVOLVED!!

It may never come to be, but IMO it is worth a shot and a good warm up for the Dawson County course that is wanted up there!
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby richardhead » Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:11 pm

The fact is, there have been people in this community that have taken it upon themselves to do course improvements without prior permission. In most cases it happened because these people hit a certain tree during a tournament round and decided that that tree/limb should no longer occupy the course. I wasn't there when these things happened so it's merely speculation on my part. I've been told these stories by other golfers that were around when these events took place.
Last edited by richardhead on Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby richardhead » Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:17 pm

Big Red wrote:
richardhead wrote:But what if it does lead to a better product in the end? Better courses and more courses I think would be worth spending small amounts of money for.


I'm all about a better end result. I'm just not sure that the money raised by course fees would go back into the course. It's my opinion that most counties have already written disc golf off as a loss and they would use this money to recoup that loss. The money may not make it back into the course.

The main problem that Atlanta has is that there aren't any permanent courses that will attract a national audience. There's no where in the city that we could hold a National Tour that would be worth while. We would be ridiculed. The only exception to this would be in Augusta, but they've denied the old school courses there in order to hype up a rather lack luster IDGC. If we could attract the creme de la creme of this sport I think Parks and Rec people would be more open to change. Until then, disc golf will be considered a risk and waste of money to these people.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Big Red » Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:07 pm

richardhead wrote:
Big Red wrote:
richardhead wrote:But what if it does lead to a better product in the end? Better courses and more courses I think would be worth spending small amounts of money for.


I'm all about a better end result. I'm just not sure that the money raised by course fees would go back into the course. It's my opinion that most counties have already written disc golf off as a loss and they would use this money to recoup that loss. The money may not make it back into the course.

The main problem that Atlanta has is that there aren't any permanent courses that will attract a national audience. There's no where in the city that we could hold a National Tour that would be worth while. We would be ridiculed. The only exception to this would be in Augusta, but they've denied the old school courses there in order to hype up a rather lack luster IDGC. If we could attract the creme de la creme of this sport I think Parks and Rec people would be more open to change. Until then, disc golf will be considered a risk and waste of money to these people.


I see your point on that. I just think it may make them more receptive to disc golf and it gives us some leverage to get them to do work on the course. I agree about the National Tour. We all know and agree that Rand did an incredible job with what he had to work with but there really just aren't any courses good enough around Atlanta to hold that kind of event. The only one I could see would be Stockbridge but you really need another course for that size of event and I don't know that Fayetteville or anywhere else would really fit the bill. I also agree completely with your thoughts on the IDGC. The other courses that are actually in Augusta and North Augusta might as well not exist for tournament play and that is just wrong.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby nixonrocks » Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:55 pm

I noticed that there is some disc golf stuff for sale in the rec center, but I don't remember if any of that goes into the Forsyth County Disc Golf Club or not. Does it?
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Redan Randy » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:38 pm

Image
This is the layout I have in mind for CP!!
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Corndawg13 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:40 pm

Haha, well thanks for the input Redan. They did move a lot of baskets around today it and re-excites everybody. I do want to know why pro's do not like it though.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Corndawg13 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:49 pm

Anyone know about this?? Says hole 7 from red tee is 416 and hole 6 Red is 457??

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=692&mode=hi


Is that accurate? Ohh 7 long is 416. Is red really 457 over the creek from red??
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby keith johnson » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:55 pm

hole 7 is 350 from red
hole 6 is approx 440 from red to across the creek pin position paced off - I don't know if the hole has been measured with a range finder.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Corndawg13 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:58 pm

Wow I parked 7 and hit the far side of the bank accross from the creek today. Goodness playing with Phil Arthur turned my game for the good! Anyway, back to the thread.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby jritger » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:31 am

good discussion. don't take this as negative, but just my two cents on why you hear some of the negative comments about CP....for the record i only make it to central about once/year even though its only ~10 minutes further drive than any other course in Atlanta from me (except white oak & flyboy are the same drive).

- aside from keith's superzied (tm) setup, it doesn't have multishot holes (par 4's and par 5's). most of the time i play with other pros at courses with par 4's & 5's (perkerson, moseley or flyboy) ... or at fun par 3 courses (ERP, Redan, White Oak). i could play keith's layout but i'd rather play an 18 hole course that's already setup like that so i don't have to carry a course guide to figure it out.

- too exposed to the elements ... all holes except the few wooded holes in the 18 hole track are completely out in the open. So it's super hot in the summer, cold in the winter, windy, etc. if the weather is great, playing here is wonderful ... but whenever i do play here is either in an august tourney when it's miserably hot, or cold/rainy in spring ... so that's the impression i get. And it really sinks in b/c the rounds aren't short here.

- poor aesthetics/setting -- it's not set off on its own area of the park like many other courses nor is it at all scenic. few unique features other than the creek that's in play on ~2 holes out of 27 (flyboy has lake & runways, perkerson has the creek, white oak has the awesome hills, moseley is completely set off & wild ... all of those have SHADE)

all of the above combined = it's not fun to play

i don't know that you can change a lot of the things about CP that make it less popular with some players. some of its core aspects (setting & exposure), make it inherently less enjoyable to play than other area courses. i'd just rather play ERP in the entire summer season for the the shade. also, there are few memorable holes .... i really like the creek hole's green (6?) and the road hole (par 4 combo 1&2?) but none of the other regular holes (not even thinking about the wooded area) stick out to me as great holes.

to me CP is a grueling course that's a hard par 3 pitch n putt. I'd be much more apt to play if it were a grueling par 65 course than a grueling par 55 course, although honestly it would have to be a really good layout to attract people due to the setting/exposure factors.

maybe you could incorporate a "best of" gold 18 hole course into the 27 hole track? figure out the best possible gold 18-hole layout using the 27 holes (just like keith does, but think a permanent every day layout) ... put in additional signage that spells it out -- so if #1 tee to #2's basket is the 1st hole, it shows a diagram of that and labels it as such with the par, distance, etc. that way you could get a BIG 18-hole course out of the existing layout with minimal changes needed...really just by figuring out the layout & adding new signage.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Corndawg13 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:28 am

A lot of Keith's tourney holes are great. Combining 1 and 2 is a good hole but starting out on that every round would kinda suck for a lot of golfers. I do agree though that CP needs par 4's or par 5's as regular holes. I think blue pads only have one par 4 hole. Maybe a permanet 24 hole layout would be better. I like 11 tee to 12 basket. I also like 5 tee to 6 basket. Mentioned in an earlier post up there by me would be a few longer holes like a new 12B throwing downhill accross the creek and the valley into the woods. Then coming back up the hill and throwing out of the woods to a long uphill anny hole to a guarded basket. I also suggested combining the last two wooded holes to make a tough par 3 or par 4. I think that changing CP a tad to incorporate more obstacles into teeshots, combining a few holes, and making holes a bit longer would be in the best long term interest. That in a nutshell is my idea to make CP better. Cannot do much about the sun and the wind.

I understand your points. CP can be, and is grueling sometimes like today when it was 31 degrees out and kind of windy.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby keith johnson » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:53 pm

Bobby - 1 of the things I have heard from the top pros is that there is a lack of Par 3's that are 2able on the course - which is why I've changed several tee pad spots for the AO and GSSS this year.

Pros like the Par 61 - they just don't like winning/losing by someone getting a bogey to their par.

Look at "theP" - Par 59 but has holes 1, 4, 6, 7, 8, new 11, 15, 16, and 18 are ALL holes that should be a 2 for 75% of the top players.

The only holes on the Supersized course at Central that is/should be a 2 for 75% of the field are hole 7 from red, 12 I from red, and 15 from red.

I've listened and observed scoring for the 4 Events over the last 2 years and I'm making changes to make it better while still leaving the signature holes alone.

By the way 12 A red pad to B basket has been and is the favorite hole of most if not all of the players and is a great risk/ reward hole.

So just making things LONGER for longer sake is not always what the top pros WANT in Event conditions.

Again my opinion,
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby VERMIN » Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:06 pm

Cons = Dangerous Teepads

Pros = Open snack bar with Hot Dogs during little league games and plenty of MILFS around while eating

Overall I like the course. Just not the teepads especially if it is wet out.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Corndawg13 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:56 pm

good points there keith and I agree that 12A to 12B is an awesome hole. maybe the meeting can actually take place and we can see how many people would be interested in possibly changing some things around and/or persuing concrete tee pads.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Corndawg13 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:44 am

Would it be possible to have the supersized layout set up one week out of every month??? Or like 2 out of the 4 weekends of the month? Then we could host doubles with a larger layout and maybe draw more top level players on a regular basis. I still think some blue pads need to be moved around, but I am just assuming a "happy median" is the best plan of action for now. I still propose a meeting of sorts to gather everyone's thoughts and ideas. As well as to see if they are feasible and possible of being done.

TEAM CP represented okay at the White Oak event! Won Rec and had an 8th in Intermeddiate! Keith did well as well!!!
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Corndawg13 » Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:14 pm

Alright, I just got off the phone with Phil Arthur and he wants to meet up with me out there next week to play a round and walk through his suggestions. He is really on-board with making CP better for pros and all levels of play in general. Of course we will not randomly do anything unless it is something like move a Gold teepad a few feet over without consulting Dave and Matt Pate. I basically want to get a plan of action going through Phil in order to see if we can't just improve the GOLD LAYOUT for now in order to draw more top level players out there.

He also suggested, as everyone else does, that teepads are the main concern out there. Concrete would be awesome, but he even said moving some pads, or building up around them to make them safer would be good.

Guys, we have a TOURING PRO on board to help make CP better, if we do not utilize him and his suggestions, then we are truly fools. He has my number and him and I will work towards a plan of action, I can only hope the Powers that Be would be onboard as well.

Let's make CP EVEN BETTER!!
Last edited by Corndawg13 on Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bobby Corn
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Forsyth County Disc Golf Organization President
http://www.facebook.com/FCDGO
COME TO CP DUBS SUNDAYS AT 2!!!

If I don't respond to a post in due time, please message me on Facebook or call/text me, thanks!
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby nixonrocks » Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:50 pm

That's cool! Let's hope he doesn't make it impossible for all of us non-world champions to play out there!! ;)
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Corndawg13 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:22 am

Oh not not at all, I was talking about the GOLD (pro) layout. Nothing would change to any other tees, unless of course he offered up ideas for spectacular holes! LIKE THE DAVE KINNEY NEW 12B HOLE!!!
Bobby Corn
Cell - 678.697.6532
PDGA #43596

Forsyth County Disc Golf Organization President
http://www.facebook.com/FCDGO
COME TO CP DUBS SUNDAYS AT 2!!!

If I don't respond to a post in due time, please message me on Facebook or call/text me, thanks!
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby keith johnson » Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:09 pm

Ok - I'll bite - What is Dave's 12B hole?

Not much you can do with it except Red A tee to B basket - which is the signature letter hole in the Supersized (every type of - including the 2010 AO and GSSS layouts) layout.

By the way how are the cypress blocker trees doing for the new 12C?
And also the blockers for the new 12D which were basically just stuck in the ground until we get trees from the park to put there.

I won't be able to get back out there until after the time changes the second week of March, so I can go during the week after work, since I'm out ofd town every weekend until the ATL Open.
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby nixonrocks » Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:27 pm

I thought the Dave Kenny hole was was 12c? Or am I wrong as usual? :shifty:
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Corndawg13 » Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:18 am

When we were all talking about where to put in the new hole, Cody had told me that Dave mentioned throwing where 12B's red teepads currently are down to the right and accross the creek where the wood log is on the left side tree line and putting a basket there to the left of the log with an alternate into the woods . blue up by the large pole and white where current 12B blue is as a par 3. It's a fun shot. Then turning back up to the hill and throwing to the 12B long basket position. That's what I heard that Dave had said as what he would do for a new hole back there. The new 12D is awesome, but that hole would be sweet as well. I say we combine 12H and I and take the basket from 12H to the make the new hole. Just one of my collective ideas to make CP more challenging. The current DK hole is 12C, this was just an idea he had for a new 12B. That would work as no tourney holes would be altered unless 12H or I is used.
Bobby Corn
Cell - 678.697.6532
PDGA #43596

Forsyth County Disc Golf Organization President
http://www.facebook.com/FCDGO
COME TO CP DUBS SUNDAYS AT 2!!!

If I don't respond to a post in due time, please message me on Facebook or call/text me, thanks!
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Re: comment from Dollar about CP...changes??

Postby Corndawg13 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:32 pm

Thanks to FBJ for organizing the bulletin board kiosk and putting new stuff in there!!
Bobby Corn
Cell - 678.697.6532
PDGA #43596

Forsyth County Disc Golf Organization President
http://www.facebook.com/FCDGO
COME TO CP DUBS SUNDAYS AT 2!!!

If I don't respond to a post in due time, please message me on Facebook or call/text me, thanks!
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